Super Mario Odyssey - It's No Masterpiece

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Joseph Anderson : Thanks for watching! I'll be streaming most of today if you want to stop by and ask any questions about the new video. You can find me here: https://www.twitch.tv/andersonjph This video took forever. Nier Automata was meant to be next but after playing Odyssey I decided I had enough to say about it that I should go for that next. The video was meant to be 45 minutes. You saw how that turned out. I realize parts of this may seem a bit excessive but it was important to prove my points. Most of what has been said about this game so far has had little evidence to support it--on the moon side of things. The movement system has had some good discussions already. Here are some more links. This video will likely get copyright claimed by Nintendo but that's okay. Patreon is doing well enough to support videos like this one now. And check out HeavyEyed's channel if you're looking for some more content. He's under 10k subs while I'm writing this. I hope he gets above that. https://www.youtube.com/c/HeavyEyed https://www.patreon.com/JosephAnderson https://twitter.com/jph_anderson https://discord.gg/8gSBsYC

John Smith : 5:38 commenting before finishing a video is something I rarely ever do, since I don't want to be ridden with preconceived notions that will or will not be addressed and/or changed later in the video. But Mario went full Nameless King there.

Kurgo : I could tell how this video would go just by looking at the dislike ratio. Nintendo fanatics are really a rabid bunch.

Vítor Medeiros : It's gonna sound ironic, I know... but that ending really was amazing! I mean, this video, this video is a masterpiece. But the closing sentence is a great exploration on today's capitalization of nostalgia.

lily-liver : "your heart should sink so low that your thong should get heavy?" ....... excuse me?

John NoNameGibbon : I find it bizarre how Mario loses abilities every time they make a _Mario 64_ sequel. While level design is important, they have to remember that Mario should always be as over powered and fun to control as he is in 64. Reducing his movement or nerfing it is bad as Mario isn't really about balance. It's about running around like a retard and breaking the game with your platforming.

Lone Wolf : The Korok Seed recurring joke was perfect hahah

HarleyAMV : 20min in and my brain just told me "Oh, he's setting up to end the video..." Then I realized I still had 1 hour and 40 min to go. I fucking love this channel!

Danzoz : Don't you hate it when youtubers extend their videos by the ten minute mark

Nothing Original : After Seeing both this video and the top comment I can say this: Your review Of Mario Odyssey Was to me at least, 2 hours of expressing 1 point: Lots of Filler. Quite literally everything you said in about 1 hour and 48 minutes could have been expressed quite easily In Ten minutes. I understand that you wanted to express how bad the problem was But It felt less as if you were expressing how much it bogs down the game for you and more of you smashing the point in with a hammer into peoples heads.

Heather Dean : #benchfriendsforever

AIias* : A two hour long video with lots of work and evidence put into it. Comments: Well, you pronounce it "Mary-o," so, you're wrong.

Ted Mosby : This was a fine video, but like Odyssey itself, it feels unnecessarily padded. You spent over half the video going over each variety of filler moon and their numbers when a few examples would have been enough to illustrate your point. I honestly feel like I got as much out of GameChamp3000's 6-minute video "Super Mario Odyssey's Power Moon Problem" as I did out of your 2-hour video. Your editing is sound, as is your critique, but please try to remember that brevity is the soul of wit.

Melody : You brought the Nintendo Fanboys out in full force. It's sad that some people are just that unable to accept that maybe something they like isn't perfect or that a criticism can be valid. It's pretty clear that most didn't even really pay attention to the video, if they even watched it in the first place, they saw the title and was baffled how anybody could find something wrong in their newest favorite game, let alone being able to detail the flaws in two hours. The thing is, the flaws that are in Odyssey are things that these people would be more than willing to acknowledge if it wasn't a Nintendo game. Back in the N64 days, when Rare was in their prime, they had the idea that if collecting things was fun, that they should add a lot of collectables. And more playable characters would be nice so they added them too. And they thought more powers and abilities would be really cool, so they added that as well. The end result is a game that few would call good. That game is called Donkey Kong 64. More than just having way too many things to collect, what brought down the experience was that levels were padded out by forcing the player to switch characters to get everything, essentially retracing all of the nooks pathways with each character. Collectathons can be good. The Banjo series and Mario 64 were great because the collectables actually had value. Stars were needed to unlock more levels. Coins were needed for one of the stars in each level, red coins were only needed for certain stars. Banjo's collectables were similarly structured this way. DK64 added bananas, 100 for each character, then each character had 5 golden bananas which were essentially the stars, and could only be collected with that character. Then there were coins each color coded for a specific character, and so on and so forth. Mario Sunshine is still a good game, but it has some flaws that really bring it down. Blue coins are not fun to collect. A lot of let's players will tell you the actual levels are pretty good, Not all of them are good mind you, but the majority of them are at least enjoyable. But again the blue coins were not fun to collect. Next let's talk about collectables in other games. Years ago in Batman Arkham Asylum there were collectables called Riddler Trophies. There were quite a number of them as well as other things such as teeth to destroy and riddles to solve. It was kind of a neat thing to look for while playing, or afterwards. These returned in City, but now there were much more of them. It got to be a bit much. Then they essentially returned in Origins, and finally in Knight. People generally stopped giving a shit about them. It was fun the first time and if there were far less it could have been fun still in the later games. Assassin's Creed went down similar routes with feathers and data fragments. Too often developers don't realize that too much of a good thing can be bad. Nintendo saw these things and thought they would use them in their games as well. In BoTW, they must have really been confident that people would like it since they included 900 of them, which is frankly ridiculous. Joseph Anderson actually was too easy on it. The game outright tells you that they are needed for completion. All of the riddler trophies or all of the AC collectables were needed for certain rewards, but the majority of the game was not in collecting those things and it took far less time to do so. BoTW makes the korok seeds take up over 75% of the completion. If you don't collect them, you haven't completed the game, not even close. Siide quests don't add any completion points. Mario Odyssey was made with the same philosophy in mind. You like collecting small pieces of golden shit don't you, well the moons and korok seeds are basically the same thing. Far too many of the moons are collected by doing the most mundane things, and as the video pointed out they often repeat the same puzzle or requirements over and over. The moons are also similar to the blue coins in Sunshine, many of them are just not fun to collect. Even if one doesn't feel that BoTW's korok seeds are required to complete the game, the moons in Mario Odyssey very much are. Some may just tell you to skip the boring parts. But that's not a solution to the game, it's just a way to overlook the problems. If that's how you cope, then more power to you, but for a game to be great you should generally be able to enjoy at least the majority of it. It certainly seems strange to rate such a game 10/10 if most of the game is not fun to play. Rather than stuff a game full of a bunch of content to pad it out for longer game time, it would be better to just shorten the game so that people will replay it. Padding can drastically hurt a game, if a game has a few really good levels but is mostly really bad levels, I may want a way to play just those levels, but in something where you have to play for long periods of time to get to the good, chances are such a game is not getting replayed or at least not very often. If a game is great though, even if it is short, I'll replay it. Majora's Mask came out almost 20 years ago, and it only takes a few hours to complete, and yet I complete it several times a year, it's just that good. Can I see myself doing that for BoTW? No, I might play it again in a few years, but I likely won't complete it again. Nintendo has it in their heads that games shouldn't be complete-able. A game you come back to every few years is preferable over a game you complete many times over the years. With how expensive their games are, more than 20% of it should be good, you shouldn't have to go out of your way to not play something in order to enjoy it. I likely wouldn't replay Odyssey. But I would replay the shit out of A Hat in Time and other 3d collectathons. You don't need several hundred collectables in order to be good, on the cotnrary, less is more since each one can be a more memorable experience. A Hat in Time has 40 Time pieces, and each one was really fun to collect and really memorable. I also found as many yarn balls as I could, though I stopped needing them and ended up with a lot of extras because they were actually fun to find. Similarly rift tokens which only unlock cosmetics and remixes. Basically it was more than just a bunch of check boxes to fill. The Time pieces were what determined completion, everything else either helped or changed things up in a fun way.

Just a Tiger thing : When I first played Mario Odyssey I had a ton of fun with it. But something in the back of my mind constantly told me that I was just playing Super Mario Collect a Moon Adventure, especially since I literally said "What the fuck, why is there a moon at the edge of the map for no reason?" when i got that "Moon at the edge of the map" moon. It's literally just a moon at the very edge of the map.. EDIT: since people don't seem to understand the point of this comment, the game literslly makes you go to the literal edge of the map, going as far as possible in a literal straight line, with no obstacles or difficulty. it just feels like a literal waste of time. imagine if in gta 5 you're given a jet and forced to fly from the bottom to the top of the map. nothing fun aside from holding up on the control stick and when you get to the end of the map or level, you don't feel anything. you literally just wasted your time holding a direction for a few seconds-minutes to waste your time. completely disrespectful

Corrupted Save : I would say that some of this could be resolved by having different tiered systems of rewards than just the "moon." I think the multi-moons are just awful, considering three moons are so easy to get. That said, I don't think this game is meant to be played from a completionists mindset. I also don't think this game is intended to be marathonned. I think Nintendo designed the game to have players be able to pick it up for about 30 minutes to an hour or two at a time, and feel like they made significant progress in that time, no matter how short the session. Especially considering the Switch doubles up as a portable system.

Danny Palin : That’s right, folks. I love Odyssey, but even I don’t consider it the cure for cancer that everyone else does. This game isn’t above criticism.

MrTrollTheMadGamer : Astonished by the level of detail and the amount of time it must have taken you to make this video. You didn't just say "Odyssey is tedious" you fucking proved it in every possible way.

The Spyrexian : Hey Joseph. I really like your video and agree with most/all of it, but can I propose a different take, you've probably already thought about it but I'll put it out anyway. You said you only need a certain amount of moons to finish, and while you also said you need to get the padding moons to finish, it shouldn't be as frustrating to complete the game if you only have to deal with it on a smaller scale. What if Nintendo intended the rubbish, repetitive moons to be for the hardcore player who clearly had enjoyed the game up to that point if they are still playing. Obviously Nintendo can't make that many awesome original moons so that repeated content. I know there are flaws to this suggestion but I wanted to throw my two cents into the jungle anyway. Really liked your twist with peaces castle moons, that make me laugh. Thanks Joe.

ae304 : So your complaints boil down to... level design and lack of challenge? You say the movement is the best of any 3d mario, then you complain about the long jumps and walljumps not being sm64. As far as challenge, this is a mario game. I haven't been challenged by more than one or two moments in a mario game since the Lost Levels. Do you consider super mario 64 difficult? Additionally, platformer difficulty is almost entirely down to player skill and lame-ness. If you stop and wait for every platform, or consider every jump from a standstill, most platformers are easy. I know adults that could struggle for hours with some of the jumps in Odyssey, and children that won't. I think this point is pretty pointless to complain about, especially behind the lens of a partially child audience. Also, of course there will be a few freebies for the kids. And I would also say that if you follow a guide or use the hint systems a lot then you have no reason to complain about difficulty. The next thing you complain about is level design. Your main points are the relative size and lengths of some levels. You say levels are "cut-content" and that some kingdoms are so small you can't believe it. What about Whomp's fortress in sm64? Does that level suck because its smaller? What about the Fish tank secret level in sm64 that only has 1 star in it, is that cut content? Why is it bad for lost kingdom or the boss arenas to be small? Nintendo made unique graphics and models, even for small one-off scenes. I would agree if they were recycled content, or of a lesser quality. They are just small/shorter. The game isn't too short in total, either. Really, your argument is an insanely INSANELY long-winded way of disagreeing with the concept of fun the game presents. You criticize the carrot without even noticing the stick. The game relishes the small pleasures of collecting coins and stars. The sound design, visual design, and character designs are stellar. I spent several minutes playing fetch with the nintendog. I spent joyous moments hunting down stacks of cans in Metro. I did laps in the scooter (without any guided objectives) and had a blast. I laughed out loud like a child at each new transformation with Mario's hilarious 'stache. I swam in formation with the other cheep-cheep. I took screenshots, I role-played, and I smelled all the roses. The variety the game provides is absolutely crazy. All of the "copy-paste-content" like the seeds you hate are OPTIONAL. I take joy in completing ALL of these, but if you don't like it, don't do it, the game has plenty to offer. A decent review, but I disagree with your point. Probably about twice or three times as many words as you need to make your point. You didn't keep up with your comparisons to the older games either. Like how on earth were you not charmed by the dogs?

NintendoCapriSun : This is my guess for how many "Plant A Seed" Moons there are in Odyssey: I'll go with 40? Also, this kind of "long rant" video is actually a guilty pleasure of mine, so thanks for this! Reetae27's Lost review is another really good one, but long rants in general are surprisingly hard to find. Not surprising, given how much editing goes into it, and trust me I know! Anyway, back to finish the video now... Oh. Thank goodness for comment editing! OK, so I was off by quite a bit last time... I think there are X many moons in Odyssey waiting for you to pick them up: 60 Edit 2! Here we go again! Number of musical note Moons? I'd have to guess... aww, balls. Ya got me on that one!

SMB3 : Thank God I found this video. I've seen nothing but praise for this game all over the place, and I have no idea why even notoriously critical people like Jim Sterling and Yahtzee are fans of it. It's nice to see I'm not just a biased outlier or something. *(WARNING: RANTY WALL OF RANT AHEAD)* This game pissed me off for a lot of reasons, mainly that it's been done better before - namely, with _every previous 3D Mario game_ (3D Land MAYBE being an exception). 64 had a shitey camera, but so many other things about it are so much better-designed! Same goes for Galaxy and G2, and to a lesser extent, Sunshine and 3D World. This isn't a some kind of nostalgia bias BS, either, and it isn't limited to Nintendo's own titles; I bought A Hat in Time, for example, shortly before Odyssey, and love it to death. And as soon as I got into Hatty Time, I thought, "WOW! This is being made by _random fans_ of the genre, and it's amazing! This has to speak volumes about the pros' ability to do it!" And then they cocked it up. Honestly, I've been mulling it over for quite a bit trying to decide why I don't like this game, and now it's hit me: it's boring. It's fucking boring. Nothing in it is interesting or difficult, there's hardly even any attempts at humor. Nothing is challenging, and since you get a moon for everything, even the little bits of "oh, that took some actual brain activity" are completely unrewarding. The music (which you didn't touch on in here, but I consider it quite important) is completely unmemorable aside from 1-Up Girl (which is still not fantastic); there's Banjo-Kazooie music I remember more of and I have literally _never played that game._ Basically, this game adds shite new mobility options that are almost never useful, takes away all form of attack besides jumping and replaces it with this lame possession mechanic, is a participation award simulator that hands out moons like a shady guy in a windowless van hands out candy, has bland level design, consists largely of tedious and repetitive filler, nuked the music, provided an annoying and _unnecessary_ tutorial sidekick, removed most of the enemies in favor of a few new ones that are - surprise! - boring, and to top it all off, has been _critically acclaimed_ for doing all this. Fine, whatever, critics enjoyed the game more than I did, but I'm still worried this will set a new standard for what Nintendo does with its games. In summary: about the only good that came of this game is the camera controls. Go buy Hatty Time instead. /rant

Xavier Fernandez : Damn. This was two hours well spent. Great video! Nearly all of your arguments were completely valid, and I loved hearing what you thought. New sub!

darkowin : 90% of people disliking this video didn't even watch it

low_selfestmeme : Hey, Joe. I love your content. I’m a supporter of yours on Patreon. But this script was a mess. I hope your upcoming work is better.

Shintai : Just finished the video, it was worth a moon.

C J Curlett : It's Mario, not Mereo.

Leith DaBeef : The kingdom's names are not Snow Kingdom or Wooded kingdom! They are Shivera and Steam Gardens!

lukewarmtoast : Disliking a video merely because you disagree with someone's opinion, no matter how they present it or how much evidence they give to back it up, is a really unhealthy reaction. Channels are hurt in many ways when their content receives a high ratio of dislikes, such as having their videos be recommended less often, all of which make it harder for creators to keep creating. Ultimately, what you're saying by disliking a video is that it'd be better if it didn't exist. I disagreed with Joe on a lot of points, but I didn't dislike it because I don't want the future of youtube game analysis/criticism to be an echo chamber of people that confirm my opinions. On the contrary, watching this made me think more deeply about the parts of Odyssey that I enjoyed & reflect on why I was able to look past the flaws he couldn't. As a result, I have a more well-rounded appreciation for the game and I'd be better at explaining why I like it to someone. Undercutting the hundreds of hours that go into making a video like this with a simple dislike throws away an opportunity to learn more about yourself and what you look for in a game. When thousands of people do it enough times, it throws that opportunity away for everyone else. Obviously that's a worst case scenario, but it's important to remember that your actions do have consequences outside of yourself.

Meta Shade : I still say Galaxy 2 did the worst job with the post game content with its green stars. At least the moons in the post game doesn't kick you out of the level every fucking time you get one like the green stars did in Galaxy 2, not to mention the green stars in Galaxy 2 weren't really well hidden...People argued & say getting kicked out of a level after getting a star makes it feel rewarding, I say it makes it feel tedious, time waisting & obnoxious to get...Funny how he didn't mention the similarities with the green stars & the filler moons when he was praising the Galaxy games...

Benito 7 : I love Odyssey but I agree with pretty much everything you said minus a few things like the 'this happened once so I better check everything". One of the reasons I still love Galaxy 1 and 2 slightly over Odyssey is just the level design itself. Like you said the kingdoms are a bit lackluster and the interesting themed one aren't expanded upon enough to be significant. The Galaxy games' levels, though linear, were fun because they had both interesting layouts and individual themes. Odyssey is restricted because it goes for a few big worlds where-as Galaxy goes for numerous, smaller worlds but those worlds vary in themes. To me, Odyssey is like going to a few big parks with a playground scattered around. Galaxy is like going to a bunch of small theme parks with big rides and sets.

Ben Anderson : My problem with your points here is that you claim there is no ceiling to differentiate the new players and experienced players into new areas with different skill levels. I would argue that the game is well developed to the point that each level has shortcuts and hidden moons that can only be reached with a true understanding of the games mechanics and moveset, rewarding experienced players and integrating a skill ceiling into the game naturally. My favorite moments with the game were at the end where the game became harder and therefore more rewarding, but that is coming from someone who plays a lot of platformers and such so I understand a game from nintendo could not have the difficulty throughout that I would prefer, as they have a large audience to attend to. I think they did a great job of appealing to both new players, and still providing old players with an abundance of nostalgia and harder levels that you unlock by collecting the number of moons needed to reach dark and darker side of the moon, which is really the only places nintendo could have put those higher skilled levels as that is where the new players wont reach. Respectfully disagree.

TheMaestroChannel : I'm not sure how I feel about this one. I'm a fan of Nintendo games however I can still identify how reviews like your Zelda critique are completely fair assessments. Unfortunately, this video gives me the impression that because everyone is obsessing over this game you felt the need to do the complete opposite which is echoed in the title. Just the sheer amount of times you seemed so disgusted over trivial aspects calling many things "bullshit" and what not is akin to your typical in depth style but comes off as a distasteful assessment. Your videos have always been nearly perfect/fair critiques and your ability to dissect each aspect of a game is what I enjoy about this channel. This video seems like an attempt to contradict the positivity by acknowledging everything done right in 15 mins and picking apart less significant mechanics for 1 hr and 45 mins when in reality the games flaws don't even equate to 1/8 of what encompasses it. I know a lot of people are complaining about fanboys, the video length and so much more but as a genuine fan of your content I feel like this video was poorly approached and I hope you don't dismiss my opinion and the many others who constructively identified the problems with this video.

Michael Mcclain : I'm more than 6 min into this video and so far there's been no criticism of Odyssey. Lots of talk about nostalgia for 2d Mario and dark souls but not much else

Frogfish999 : I find it very ironic that your main criticism of odyssey is its tedium...and then you take 2 hours to say that.

24 Frames Of Nick : Okay but super Mario odyssey takes a lot from spongebob squarepants battle for bikini bottom and I stand by that premise

Slowpoke85 : Thank you for this, dude! I felt so underwhelmed playing Odyssey! I don't know what people are talking about saying this game was a masterpiece! It was OKAY, but as a 3D Mario game...... meh.

Yolodrigo : Only watched 43 minutes of it but I can tell that this game wasn't aimed at you bud. And no, it wasn't aimed at children as you said. I think you're missing the focus of the game and searching for a challenge that just isn't intended to be there. Besides one or two challenge rooms and maybe the final level Odyssey is a pretty easy game, but that's what it's setting out to do, a lot of the easier or "mundane" moons as this review calls them are meant to just reward you for having a keen eye or thinking around the box from time to time. When you look at the minimaps, promotional art and even the game's box you can tell this game was heavily inspired by tourism. This game was intended to feel more like a vacation rather than a hardcore blood, sweat and tears challenge and if that doesn't appeal to you that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have to.

Mr Pootis : This game is just not for you. No offense, but you just seem like a grumpy old man in this video. I played mario 64 the year it came out and I thought both this game and 64 are masterpieces. When you play this game you're just supposed to relax and have fun. A game doesn't have to be hardcore and complex to be fun. I love Kirby and that shits like the easiest game ever made but still it makes me feel good to play. Odyssey is bright, colorful, and has a heart and soul. It's not tedious, it's simple dumb fun and some times, that's exactly what you need.

Garbodor Appologist : i disagree with but respect your opinion.

The Narrator : I love long videos

Best Of : I get it, everyone has an opinion, but i cant understand yours. That is all i had to say, i can find myself never saying i agree but can't say i disagree.

Arius Pierre : You can't tell a mario fan anything, they always think there games are flawless. God forbid you dont enjoy a mario game because they'll be there to tell you you're opinion is wrong and that there opinion is fact.

Vercusgames : 2 hour review?! He won't mention Dark Souls as an example... He mentioned Dark Souls. /:

Dusk Legend : okay so I’m not going to finish the video at the time of writing this, but basically after this section about the tedium of different kinds of moons, like the ground pound, rock kick, etc, the answer to your video is simple: *that’s the game* Clearly you weren’t into this game because those things are what this game IS. I’m sure some of the things are annoying (like spots to pound that have no indication) but don’t pretend it wasn’t the same thing in super Mario 64, sunshine, galaxy, or whatever. All tasks in single player open world games like this boil down to beat this enemy/find this spot/complete this many challenges. This game just happens to break some of these up into smaller, admittedly more annoying, segments. And annoying, while annoying lol, does not equate to the kind of objective bad that a 2 hour video would tend to warrant I can sympathize with what you said but from any value of objectivity and truth, which is what your droll, professional tone would tend to indicate you’re trying to claim in this video, you’re just what my circle of friends would call a bitch lol

Odox Joie : Personally, I did not find your voice condescending or aggressive, I didn't find the length to be monotonous whatsoever, (rather I found it appropriate given the content) and I quite enjoyed your perspectives. I appreciate you being incredibly thorough.

Agustin Leguiza : This may bring hate, but i'm glad someone talked about the flaws of this game. I would like if someone did this with Sonic Mania because they always praise the shit out of it withouth talking about the flaws and instead act like "hur dur BeSt SoNiC gAmE since [insert years here]" I like Mania but it has flaws and some of those are the lack of innovative things, lack of stage transitions, the Drop Dash being the only innovative thing, Knuckles not having as much exclusive levels as he had in S3&K and the final boss.

Will-O-Wisps : Fun game: Drink everytime this guy says "Marryo" or "Shrines". RIP you

Chain Link Productions : I agree with you completely. This game is so garbage. I'm selling it. I played through to the beach kingdom....This game has nothing on the classics. I'm going to say this is the worst Mario of all time and does not deserve the name. I noticed repetitiveness in Breath of the wild as well.... Seems the developers are getting lazy............. makes me sick... This Mario game especially seems like it's inspired by modern day app games.. with constant dopamine hit triggers... repetitive ones... as for your analysis...it's rigorous... however it's too lengthy.... how long did this take you? more than 100 hours?

TweetPark : I originally came into this video expecting to see a sonic fan saying that Mario’s overrated or shit like that. Instead I felt ashamed in myself when I found an impressive and thorough review that changed my opinion on the game. I still like it but tbh I have stuck to using a guide sometimes for the reasons you mentioned. Good work man.